Talk:Lolo Soetoro/Archive 1

I am not aware of the earlier debate, however, the stepfather of a candidate for the president of the United States is certainly important enough to have an article on Wikipedia.

How could anyone think otherwise?--Utahredrock (talk) 18:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC) (late sig.)

He is only notable in that he has some connection to someone who is notable. But he has no inherent notability beyond that. (As is often mentioned in these debates, notability is not inherited.) The notable details of his life are already mentioned in the biography of Barack Obama. There isn't any need for a separate stub article to repeat these facts. --Loonymonkey (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Due to the fact that over 10% of Americans now believe Obama is a Muslim, Soetoro is in fact incredibly notable--just because of his role in Obama's life.--Utahredrock (talk) 18:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

C'mon! The article looks perfectly good, about a notable person. Yes his predominant notability is familial... but does anyone think, e.g. Laura Bush would have an article based on her career as a librarian either? This article shouldn't be 20k words, and it definitely shouldn't be a coatrack for any political rumours (pro- or con-) about Obama's religious background. But lots of folks will see Soetoro's name and wonder what his basic biography is... let's tell them. LotLE×talk 18:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Notability may not be inherited. But one's notability may arise out of one's relationship with a highly notable person. It's a subtle difference but important. If there are enough reliable sources of substance, and it's more than just a news item, then notability ld be easy to demonstrate. The issue then may become WP:BLP. We generally do cover parents, and step parents, of presidential candidates. Please be sure, when writing an article like this, to include citations inline next to facts they support. Putting all the citations at the end makes it difficult to sort out which source verifies which statement, so it makes the editing harder and harder as the article expands. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 18:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikidemo is definitely right that the article could use some touching up relative to citations and whatnot. That's just normal editing stuff though, not related to the notability of the topic (not to say Wikidemo claimed otherwise, just clarifying). I'm not sure what WP:BLP issue Wikidemo has in mind though. LotLE×talk 21:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's a BLP issue right now. But sometimes there are objections when you "out" an otherwise private person who turns out to be notable because of their connection with big people and events. Making something up (and without reference to Soetoro), suppose the relative of a politician got arrested for shoplifting and plead no contest to do community service. Or did whatever the Bush daughters did before they settled down. Sure, it's been reported in the media and has reliable sources. But we don't need to report those life details. I'm just saying that any "leave the poor guy alone" sentiment is probably a BLP concern, not a notability concern. Again, no indication of that here. Wikidemo (talk) 21:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, my objections were for notability reasons and had nothing to do with WP:BLP. BLP is irrelevant in this case because he died some time ago (you know...the "L" in "BLP.") --Loonymonkey (talk) 22:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually my understanding is that the L does come into play for a dead person if other living people are talked about in an article - we have to protect them. I'm not pointing to anything specific (haven't read it since it was first put up) but just wanted to mention that BLP can still be a concern. As for whether this article is needed - I think not. He has no independent notability, and he is amply covered in Barack Obama - his role in Obama's life was only for a few years, and I am indeed concerned about this becoming a coatrack. Tvoz/talk 22:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Oops. Wikipedia 1 / Wikidemo's reading comprehension 0. Thanks for pointing that out. Wikidemo (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing - I picked that up when editing some other articles about dead people. Tvoz/talk 22:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

[outdent] Now I've read it and I feel even more strongly that it is not an appropriate article. Facts (all of which are amply covered in other articles here) are wrong or missing, there is no logical progression, and I get the overwhelming sense that it is already a coatrack for getting the name Obama and the word Muslim together. I would support an AfD on this one. Tvoz/talk 22:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, as indicated. I think it's a worthwhile topic. Of course the interest in Soetoro is overwhelmingly because of Obama, but many readers with no specific agenda will wonder: What did this guy Soetoro do for a living? For school? Is he alive? How long was he in Obama's life? Any other wives/children/etc? ... that sort of thing. We can say a very small amount in Obama's article, but less than we can put here. It would be good to see a little more on Soetoro's own life, education, career, etc (I have no idea what the facts are, but I'd be curious to know myself)... and not because I'm trying to find some narrow dirt on "Is (was) he a Muslim?"

Still, if you think it's a deletion, go ahead an do the AfD. I'll certainly vote keep. Not on the specific brilliance of the current version—it's not bad—but on the notability of the topic in principle. I'm pretty certain "keeps" will dominate, but if not, that's what AfD is for. LotLE×talk 02:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Feedback and response to user Tvoz

Below is feedback that was left on my user talk page by user Tvoz with replies.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course I agree that everyone deserves to get the facts, but the facts are well handled in Barack Obama and Ann Dunham in my opinion, and I don't see anything in Lolo's separate article that is new or not already covered, and a fair amount missing or incorrect. I think people looking for information on Obama's religion will be looking at his own article, and having a separate article that seems dedicated to mentioning Lolo's Muslim background doesn't seem to be doing what you say you wanted to do. I don't at all suggest that information about Lolo be left out of the encyclopedia, but I think a separate article that has nothing additional is problematic. Tvoz/talk

This is false. It is difficult to know much about Lolo when reading just those other entries. It is true, however, that much remains unstated, which sadly is being used by the consiracy minded folks.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

As for the missing and incorrect information - there's nothing about their daughter, for example, Tvoz/talk

I wasn't sure whether or not to add information on her since she's living person--Utahredrock (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you can say that Ann Dunham and Lolo had a daughter, her name, date of birth, and a wikilink to her article all are fine.Tvoz/talk 03:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

unclear info about when Dunham and Soetoro met, Tvoz/talk

It states "He met Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, when they were both students at the University of Hawaii.[1]" It does not have the year, that would be good to add.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

No, that's the point - we don't have any more info than that they met while in college. We certainly don't know that they met as early as 1963. Tvoz/talk 03:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

when he was an Indonesian oil engineer, Tvoz/talk

Are you saying it doesn't have the years? It does state that is what he did.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

you say they met at college, then suddenly he's an oil engineer in Indonesia. No mention of when they moved there.Tvoz/talk 03:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

As only a half-part threadjack, B writes, "During the purge, all students studying abroad had been summoned without explanation, their passports revoked. When Lolo stepped off the plane, he had no idea of what might happen next. We couldn't see him; the army officials took him away and questioned him. they told him that he had just been conscripted and would be going to the jungles of New Guinea for a year. And he was one of the lucky ones. Students studying in Eastern Bloc countries did much worse. Many of them are still in jail. Or vanished."( — Justmeherenow (   ) 22:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC))

"You shouldn't be too hard on Lolo," the cousin repeated. "Such times are best forgotten."

unsourced comment about Soetoro's influence on Obama, Tvoz/talk

Which comment? The whole thing is well sourced.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

You said that he was a big influence - where does that come from? Do you have a source for it? Tvoz/talk 03:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

error about Obama's Hawaii school, etc. Tvoz/talk

Thanks for fixing that--Utahredrock (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

No problem Tvoz/talk 03:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Was there a rush to add this article that prevented more research? Tvoz/talk

I certainly agree more research is needed. Unfortunately there didn't seem to be much left out there at least on the Internet.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the point - not much is known, and what is known is amply covered in Barack Obama, Ann Dunham, etc. I'm not trying to get on your case, and I appreciate that sometimes we set up stubs for other people to fill out, but it seems to me that that this one didn't even use the information right here on Wikipedia, so I have to wonder what the rush was. Tvoz/talk 00:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

There was no "rush" there was and perhaps still is just a huge gap of information on this man who played a key role in Obama's life. I encourage you to fill in those blanks if you're more knowledgable and have better and more sources. I notice somebody removed a critical quote that she light on the fact that neither Soetoro, nor Obama's mother were muslim extremists. It is unfortunate how little detail is available on this man who has become central to the absurd argument that Obama is muslim and worse.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Why do you assume he played a "key role"? As far as I can tell, Obama only lived with him for four years from ages 6-10. I removed the quote because it is not the way we write articles - it was hanging there without any context. And it was about how Ann felt, not information about Lolo. Right, the rumor is wrong. But this article stub, unfortunately, really does nothing to refute it. I don't know that any more information is going to become available - and the piece as it is fails to meet notability standards in my opinion. I don't care to do much work on it because I don't think it should be there at all. But perhaps you want to. I'll take your word for it that your intentions are good, but I don't find this article worth saving. Tvoz/talk 03:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The Tvoz removed quote

User Tvoz removed the following: During this time "as Ann became more intrigued by Indonesia, her husband became more Western. He rose through the ranks of an American oil company and moved the family to a nicer neighborhood. She was bored by the dinner parties he took her to, where men boasted about golf scores and wives complained about their Indonesian servants. The couple fought rarely but had less and less in common. 'She wasn't prepared for the loneliness,' Obama wrote in Dreams from My Father. 'It was constant, like a shortness of breath.'"<ref name=time/> According to Time Magazine, their household in Indonesia, a Muslim country, was not religious.

I don't know that the "Muslim country" in necessary, but the rest from Time Magazine shed more light on this subject than I've seen anywhere. I would like it to be returned to the article, however, I do not want to engage in an edit war.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I actually like the quote OK as well. It might be a little longer than we need, but it seems to provide some background information on Soetoro.

I confess I'm frustrated by the comment above about "information that can be found elsewhere on WP"... I'm happy to stipulate that there won't be a lot of extra information we dig up on Soetoro that's not mentioned in the Ann Dunham or Barak Obama articles. But insisting readers go those other places puts undue burden on them, and poorly organizes the information. Tvoz seems to think that this article can only be some sort of coatrack about Obama and religion, which seems silly to me. I just see it as a bio of a person whose name readers may encounter (yes, in connection with Obama)... imagine yourself a reader of some popular magazine (not WP for my example) that has an article about Obama, mentioning his step-dad. In our little story, you say to yourself, "I wonder who this Soetoro guy is". At that point, the obvious thing is to look for a Wikipedia article on Soetoro, not to dig through the articles on related people on the chance (currently true, tomorrow who knows) that it will mention him indirectly... "Think of the readers!" (*wink*) LotLE×talk 03:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

First, the quote talks about how Ann felt - it doesn't really give us biographical information about Lolo. Put a version of it into Ann Dunham if you think it is valuable. And it was out of context and just hanging there - encyclopedia style is to paraphrase any information that might be contained in it and cite the article, not throw a long quote in. Second - I didn't recommend that people dig - I would make this a redirect to Ann Dunham, so no one has to suffer any burden when they click on Lolo or put his name in the box. The point about notability, it seems to me, is that if there is nothing to say about Lolo other than that he married Ann, who herself is only notable because she's Barack's mother (but her article tells us more about her than we have room for in Barack's), then handle Lolo in Ann's article. Tvoz/talk 04:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

While I still think this quote shed more light on Soetoro than anything else I've read, I think that Tvoz's edits maintain the key points. I'd still like to see the quote replaced, but perhaps it's not Wikipedia-appropriate? I just don't know as a comparitive novice here.--Utahredrock (talk) 05:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Why this article is so important

Tvoz asked me why or how I could state that Lolo S. played a "key role" in Obama's life.

That's a good question. I don't know, however, finding more information on him is the answer, not shuffling this topic out of existence. From what I can gather, for at least four years, Lolo was the male authority figure in Obama's life. This seems to easily qualify as a "key role." All accounts of that period of his life that I have read show zero evidence of Muslim influence directly in the household (except of course that the household was in a muslim country, which tells us very little in my opinion).

It is critical for anyone interested in Obama, and frankly that is up to billions of people right now, that we have more, not less information on key people in his life. Lolo S. seems as important, if not more important, than the infamous Rev. Wright.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Wright has nothing to do with this discussion, but he was in Obama's adult life for over 20 years. Obama lived with Soetoro for 4 years, from ages 6-10, and we have been given nothing that says that he had a big influence, a small influence, or any influence on Barack. We don't know if he loved him or hated him. You are projecting that he was the male authority figure - does Barack or anyone say that anywhere? We can't write an article using our own assumptions - that's OR and not allowed. Look at his book and anything else he's written, or interviews with him or his half-sister, and see if you find anything about Lolo's influence. I don't have the answer - for all I know he was the major influence of his life - but I have seen absolutely nothing to support that, and people's assumptions don't cut it. If material is unearthed that actually does shed light on whatever their relationship was, then great, we may have enough for an article. If it turns out that Lolo has some other significance that makes him notable, terrific, we can write an article. But what we have isn't an article. Tvoz/talk 04:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Lolo was a super-duper humungous, big-time maximum deluxe father figure ("step-") for Barack, it seems (at least from an off-hand interpretation of the things BHO the 2nd said in his now-famous memoir.... ) — Justmeherenow (   ) 22:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"Lolo was a super-duper humungous, big-time maximum deluxe father figure." Too too funny! I love it. Thanks for that description.--Utahredrock (talk) 06:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Wright is relevant, in a passing sort of way, because of your discussion on "key influences."

It seems delusional to suggest that someone's stepfather from the age of 6-10 (maybe earlier) did not play a key role in that persons life. The question isn't whether or not he played a key role, of course he did, the question is what was the role? Who is this man Lolo Soetoro? How might he have affected Obama? I haven't a clue, but having an article on him based on what we do know is important. All arguments to the contrary are weak and unconvincing.--Utahredrock (talk) 04:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Articles don't write themselves. Go do the research and maybe you'll be able to shed some light on this. I would expect that if he had such a big influence, Obama will have spoken of it. If so, you may be able to construct an article. Otherwise, it may seem delusional to you, but it's still OR and it's still not ok. We don't have an article here. And about "key influences" - you made the assertion that Lolo played a key role in Obama's life, not I, and I'm asking for sourcing. Wright is irrelevant. Tvoz/talk 04:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing I've included in the article was original research. It was a presentation of the limited facts I was able to gather from the sources that are cited as references. It seems like you are arguing about the amount of influence Soetoro had on Obama which I agree is unknown based on what I've read. I did not ever go beyond the sources. His role during key years of Obama's childhood, however, means he is an important person in Obama's past. How important? I don't know and did not say. I will continue to research and follow this topic.--Utahredrock (talk) 04:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Tvoz

Cheers to user Tvoz for coming around and contributing to this article. Good work!--Utahredrock (talk) 17:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually I had already contributed to it, and I'm watching it and will edit it to avoid problems with the text, but I really haven't changed my mind about it; I am willing to wait and see how it develops for now. By the way - my point about OR was not that you put OR into the text as much as that your assumption that he was a big influence on a child who lived with him for four years seems to be your OR and not supported by anything I've seen, and there's not been any independent notability demonstrated. Tvoz/talk 22:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Whatever your reasons, concerns, and motivations--thanks for making this a better article.--Utahredrock (talk) 23:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Can someone tell me which source says Soetoro was with the Indonesian Army? I don't recall reading that, but it got added in to the article.--Utahredrock (talk) 08:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

User Tvoz removed the Army reference. The following source says he worked for the government prior to his oil gig:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/familytree/545455,BSX-News-wotreegg09.stng

It's not enough info. to add anything I don't think, and of course doesn't mention the army.--Utahredrock (talk) 18:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I did that: my bad. Anyway----

He was working for the army as a geologist, surveying roads and tunnels, when she arrived. It was a mind-numbing work that didn't pay very much; the refridgerator alone cost two months' salary. And now with a wife and child to provide for... no wonder he was depressed. She hadn't travelled all this way to be a burden, she decided. She would carry her own weight.----BARACK OBAMA (copyright 1995)

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 21:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• That's great info and a good source. Add it in.--Utahredrock (talk) 21:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
• I reduced the question marks from four to one.--Utahredrock (talk) 21:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this genall.world a reliable source? Is it appropriate, based on that source, to add more to Soetoro's name? He's not referred to this way in any other source--I don't think. It just seems suspect to me and/or unnecessary to change his name to Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjobased based on that one source.--Utahredrock (talk) 08:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll removing it for now. Meanwhile, I'm conducting some (quasi-"original") research via an e-mail just sent an old friend.

Please help me with an inquiry concerning your knowledge of Barry Soetoro's (namely, Barack Obama's) Indonesia. A number of self-published, articles online seem to be quoting a single source which adds the suffix "Mangoenhardjo," or else "Manunharjo," to Obama's step-dad's name: which is "Lolo Soetoro" or "Lolo Sutoro." You stayed there months or years and studied Indonesian at U.C. Berkeley, so I hope you'll quickly drop me a line as soon as you get this----nothin' fancy, a quick phrase or two----to explain why this would likely be correct, likely incorrect, or you wouldn't want to venture a guess. Here's what I've been able to piece together so far. An additional source asserts that Obama's school records abbreviate Obama's step-father as "L Soetoro Ma."
While Indonesian birth certificates give parentage as a form of indentification other than an individual's "given name(s)"...otherwise, modern Indonesians have taken to simply choosing de facto "surnames" for themselves. So I'd speculate that the "Ma" of the putative school record would follow standard Indonesian practice of abbreviating a less-important surname to favor the given name of "Lolo Soetoro," together as a compound(?) Or else with the "L" for the initial "Lolo" indicating it's a alternate or additional, adopted, informal name? Tell me whatcha think.... — Justmeherenow (   ) 13:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, "Mangunharjo" or "Mangoenhardjo" is also a city in Jawa Timur. — Justmeherenow (   ) 13:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"Most Indonesian and Javanese names consist of three parts, all of which are the person's own name -- i.e. not shared with anybody else, such as their dads. [...¶...] We don't care a fig about what your husband's family name is, just like we never cared about your dad's. ¶ In cases where the place to write it down is limited, such as in tax forms, name-tags, etc., the abbreviated part is always the last name -- You X. ¶ The use of common last names shared by more than one person is a matter of personal preference."----REAL JAVA & INDONESIA FOR REAL PEOPLE (WEBSITE): "JAVANESE & INDONESIAN NAMES" — Justmeherenow (   ) 14:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm putting Manoenharjo back in the lede. [According to the Banjarmasin Post, /Sementara ayahnya bernama L Soetoro MA yang bekerja sebagai pegawai Dinas Geografi Ditjen Topografi TNI Angkatan Darat/," that translates, "School documents further record Barry's father as L Soetoro Ma who worked as an official of the Director General's office in the TNI Topography division of the Indonesian Army."]..... — Justmeherenow (   ) 14:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

An email from your friend isn't exactly what we call a reliable source. You're really going to need to come up with better sourcing (in English!) before we can change the name. --Loonymonkey (talk) 17:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

To user Justmeherenow: Cool signature there with your name!  ; )

Regarding this discussion, I find your input very interesting--including your correspondence with your friend who sounds knowledgeable on Indonesian culture. All the same, I do agree with Loonymonkey that it's not sufficient research for changing (or adding to) Soetoro's name. All good info. though--especially for the talk page. Regards,--Utahredrock (talk) 17:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Another semi-threadjack: Hey dude (Utahredrock), my friend is a videographer and he did a shoot----or whatever it's more properly called----of Maya last week: (("Maya Soetoro-Ng, in SF Francisco 6-18-2008"): part 1, (the whole first video is somebody-who's-not-Maya's introductory remarks) Maya Soetoro-Ng, in SF Francisco 6-18-2008 part 2, (Maya herself) and part 3. Anyway, this was his response:

I just talked to Baracks sister Maya last week.. I actually talked all in Indonesian with her.. I asked her if Barack still speaks Indonesian, she said he does not speak it well. As a kid he did like me when my parents spoke German, [Note: my friends' parents are German. — Justmeherenow (   ) I would answer in English.. But I understood german well and she says he understands it [Indonesian] well. I video taped the event where I talked to her.. see it here.

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 23:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It should be out completely - the only sources I found were partisan Obama attacks and the genealogy listing at least was neutral, so I tentatively left it in with that source, hoping to find something better. We can't use a source that is not verifiable in English, and obviously personal correspondence is out of the question. So the name should be out until something reliable and verifiable is found. Tvoz/talk 17:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Please read the following two wholly neutral, published source for Lolo Soetoro Mangundikardjo, one in English----

"A little boy Barack Obama lived in Indonesia with his step father, Lolo Soetoro Mangundikardjo (Indonesian), his Mom (Aan Dunham) and his sister (Maya Kassandra Soetoro)[.... ... ...Obama] moved to other Government Elementary School in Menteng, Jakarta. This kind of school is the same school where I went to Elementary School. [... ...] I wrote a little bit about him at online newspaper Kabar Indonesia."----FIDA ABBOTT (amateur Indonesian journalist);<:ref>Abbott, Fida (2007-01-26). "Little [boy] Barack Obama was in Indonesia". Fida Abbott (Fida Abbott (semi-amateur Indonesian-language journalist's personal blog). Retrieved 2008-06-21. ...Barack Obama lived in Indonesia with his step father, Lolo Soetoro Mangundikardjo (Indonesian), his Mom (Aan Dunham) and his sister (Maya Kassandra Soetoro).... {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessyear=, |month=, |accessmonthday=, and |coauthors= (help)</:ref>

----the other in Indonesian:

Setelah Aan Dunham berpisah dengan Barack Husein Obama, Aan Dunham untuk yang kedua kalinya menikah dengan seorang mahasiswa bernama Lolo Soetoro Mangundikardjo dari Indonesia yang sedang menyelesaikan study untuk mengambil gelar Doktor dibidang geologi.----NIRINA ORAW<:ref>Oraw, Nirina (2007-01-25). "Barry Soetoro calon Presiden AS". Kabar Indonesia: Dari kita untuk kita (in Indonesian). Retrieved 2008-06-21. Setelah Aan Dunham berpisah dengan Barack Husein Obama, Aan Dunham untuk yang kedua kalinya menikah dengan seorang mahasiswa bernama Lolo Soetoro Mangundikardjo dari Indonesia yang sedang menyelesaikan study untuk mengambil gelar Doktor dibidang geologi. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessyear=, |month=, |accessmonthday=, and |coauthors= (help)</:ref>

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 19:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how "amateur Indonesian journalist" Fida Abbott can even remotely be considered reliable and verifiable, especially when the information in question contradicts what has been reported in reliable and verifiable sources (NYT, Time Magazine, etc.). Also, both of those links are in Indonesian, not English which may have just been a link-pasting mistake, but unless a real English-language WP:RS source can be found, we should just drop this. --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The link to her English text is at the numerical footnote, the blue link simply verifies that she's a journalist. Furthermore, surely the New York Times wouldn't think of controdicting the encyclopedic fact that Indonesians often carry three names, with most third-place, Indonesian "doubled surnames" being patronyms (as do the Russians, except theirs are middle names; eg Putin's is Vladimirovich!) — Justmeherenow (   ) 19:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

See my comment below. No consensus for adding this unreliably and unverifiably sourced name, and it seems to be a very minor point, so why are you insisting on different versions of it? Tvoz/talk 21:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh boy . . .

Justmeherenow,

Saw you just changed the name again.

I admire your persistence, but think you have a very weak case here.

I suspect they will be and recommend that your edits on adding to Soetoro's name be reverted.--Utahredrock (talk) 19:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Note: By the time I wrote this the change had been reverted. Let's not have an edit war folks. This is what talk pages are for.--Utahredrock (talk) 19:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
• I echo Looneymonkey's sentiment that it's time that "we should just drop this."--Utahredrock (talk) 19:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Middle one of these three footnoted sources is in English

The middle of the three sources is in the English language (which also happens to match the beaucoup reports of those who'd seen "Barry Soetoro's" registration for public school, as well. Also, the final-place footnoted source, written by the Indonesian journalist Oraw, is translated into English here (as "An insight to Barrack Obama’s strong emotional affinity to Indonesia".

Lolo Soetoro Mangundikardjo^[1][2][3] (1936?–1987) was the stepfather of Barack Obama.

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 19:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Of course he was the stepfather, the question is this:

Is the addition of Mangundikardjo necessary or proper here in the English version of Wikipedia?--Utahredrock (talk) 19:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• One test here is whether Barack, his mother, or half-sister ever had this additional name. It seems they would have had to in order to make the case, however, I don't know much about Indonesian culture. I am more familiar with English/American naming standards.--Utahredrock (talk) 19:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Although your synthesis would hold in a Western European context, Utahredrock, in this case (that is, in the Indonesian case involving a society which not many generations ago still determined inheritances according to matriarchal lineages!) it doesn't; as alas, these third-place Indonesian names are not family names in the usual sense, but often patronyms (viz, daughters would have "daughter of so-and-so," sons would have "sons of so-and-so." But in just as many cases, the source I read indicates that it (the third-place name) isn't patronymic but is left up to family tradition combined with individual preferences (but still without its its being a family name per se either.... ) — Justmeherenow (   ) 20:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Justmeherenow has provided sufficient sources that the extra name 'Mangunharjo' seems well supported. Sure we'd rather have an English source than an Indonesian one, but the foreign language source, combined with the admittedly not-quite-RS blog, combined with the genealogy site, seem fine to support this moderately interesting fact about his name. We do, as a rule, give full names of people in leads (most common version as article name), and it doesn't sound like the third name is really disputed. LotLE×talk 20:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Disagree about the sourcing - the blog is not a reliable source and we cannot independently verify what the INdonesian-language source says. I object to including both of them. Again, I added the genealogical source reluctantly because it's not footnoted itself so unkonown if it is verified itself, but at least it appears to be neutral, but I changed my mind about including the name at all for now. The other Google hits I got include the exact same phrase which is a lie: "The evidence seems to show that both Ann Dunham and her husband Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo were in fact devout Muslims themselves" - doesn't that make anyone else wonder why this name is being insisted on? And you haven't even decided which spelling of this name is accurate - is it "Mangundikardjo" or "Mangunharjo"? Until we have a reliable source that we can read, understand, and verify what it saying, we can't include it. Justmeherenow, your independent analysis of Indonesian society doesn't help, as we still do not know what either of the two words/names mean - it seems to be your conjecture that this is a patronym. And I continue to think that this article is a coatrack-in-waiting and has nothing whatsoever about Soetoro independent of Ann and Barack - he is appropriately covered in Ann Dunham and any minor missing details can be easily merged there. Tvoz/talk 21:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it was a patronym, I just said that patronyms are common. And, truth be told, I have a hunch it is not a patronym; but I would imagine it could conceivably reflect Lolo's familial----tribal----place of origin some how, nonetheless. But you're absolutely right, the alternate spelling (probably simply mis-)spellings are troubling. It's like there's this abbreviated final name on Lolo's records, so every Indonesian source tries to guess from memory what it was, spelling it a different way each time: not the way to authoritatively source an encyclopedia. Nonetheless, whenever----or I should say if ever----it gets sourced, it's goin' in. Just sayin'. — Justmeherenow (   ) 22:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but just keep in mind where the bar is set when it comes to sourcing. You're attempting to overrule multiple mainstream, verifiable, reliable sources so don't come back with another blog post and claim you finally sourced it. You'll need something along the lines of Washington Post, New York Times, Time, Newsweek, CNN, etc. Until then, there's not much to discuss anymore. --Loonymonkey (talk) 23:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Specicifying what name an appended abbreviation stands for isn't really overruling somebody----as we've got multiple sources that say it's something similar to Ma...whatever. (Reminds me of this:

(Truman's bare initial caused an unusual slip when he first became president and had to take the oath of office. At a meeting in the Cabinet Room, Chief Justice Harlan Stone began reading the oath by saying "I, Harry Shipp Truman, . . ." Truman responded: "I, Harry S. Truman, . . ."----WIKIPEDIA)

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 01:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"Something similar to" doesn't cut it. Nor do hunches. Let's move on. Tvoz/talk 01:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No, not at all. First, the non-English sources are meaningless as we can't verify what it actually says. That leaves only a blog as a source. Are you really trying to argue that a foreign blog is a more reliable source than the New York Times and Time Magazine? Sorry, until there is a more reliable source for this, it doesn't belong. --Loonymonkey (talk) 22:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

I'm not sure, Tvoz, why you are so hyper-concerned about the Muslim association. It seems well enough cited that Soetoro was a non- or semi-practicing Muslim. And lots of right-wing blogs want to make up dumb stories about Obama's religion, of course. But for example, why would the extra name have anything to do with religious affiliation one way or the other? A number of comments you have made seem to say "Suggesting this extra name paints Soetoro as 'more Muslim'"... maybe I'm misreading, but that seems weird to me: whatever name he had seems completely orthogonal to his religious belief/practice. LotLE×talk 23:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Where did I say that? What I said is it seems odd to me that when you google the name the overwhelming majority of the hits reveal one identical Obama smear. Try it: Google "Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo". Apparently they have made a connection - I don't know or care what it is, but I find the unwillingness to let this go unless real, verifiable, English-language, non-blogs and non-personal testimony sources are found is suggesting that this edit is being made for some point. And all of the irrelevant stuff posted about Indonesian culture and Harry Truman changes nothing. I'm not going to keep repeating the same thing. We need reliable, verifiable (i.e., English language) sources. They need to not be blogs or personal email. This name addition is utterly unimportant - no legitimate articles that talk about him have been produced that use the name - so one can only question the zeal with which it is being pursued. Saying that Lolo was a non-practicing Muslim is not a problem to me. Bending oneself out of shape to force a source that includes a name that when googled gives up a smear is what I am objecting to and questioning. Tvoz/talk 01:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you've convinced me by means of an analogy that you didn't actually make. I tried the actual Google thing, and indeed the identical "Muslim-baiting" language seems to occur verbatim in most of the uses of the Ma<whatever> name. I was tempted to note that it was a fallacy of argumentum ad hominem to assume that bad sources meant false facts. However, it reminded me of the now amazingly widespread historical error of 1950s red-baiters inventing the middle-name "Nicolai" for Vladimir Ilich Lenin (in fact, Wikipedia mostly gets this urban legend wrong too, but sort-of nonspecifically). That middle name was an invention of the John Birch Society, who managed to publicize the error widely enough that most everyone has heard it (and probably half of those believe it). While it's hard to see why the name Nicolai actually makes Lenin any better or worse, it is the wrong name, spread only by political meme. So even though Soetoro's possible third name isn't any more or less Muslim than his other two, I'm convinced that more reliable sources really are needed before it can go in the article. LotLE×talk 04:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Not that anyone cares about this historical curiosity, but here's one mention of the false Lenin name: http://www.dlib.org/dlib/september00/09letters.html. Actually, it reminds me that I should find better sources, and fix the Lenin article on this issue. LotLE×talk 04:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the Lenin story - I wasn't familiar with it and it's a good one. Glad to hear that it convinced you! This whole thing is starting to quack, if you know what I mean. Tvoz/talk 04:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Also I found a translation of the final footnoted source into English as well!

Just sayin.'... lol — Justmeherenow (   ) 22:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Why shouldn't journalists of the "Banjarmasin Post" be assumed trustworthy?

Again some philosophy. Well, this time----it's "sociology." Let me explain......

Abraham Lincoln was famously a religious skeptic. But also a crusader for progressive values, as they say: social justice. He became a martyr. After his death, his friend(s) who was a/were minister(s) said he'd pledged fealty to Christ before his death. (Maybe he HAD said something along these lines. Who knows? Does it matter?) Answer: well, yes, it does to those who believe in Christ, it matters very much! Anyway, I call this need to folks to have those who they admire hold to their cherished, transcendant beliefs a function of (Say it!)----that's right. Sociology!

OK now let us deal with Mr. Barack and his connection with the marvelous people of Java. Not the coffee, the people of Sumatra: heck, and all Indonesians. So, lo and behold, two years back (9 July 2006) reporters (apparently with initials D.T.C and D.W.S.), writing in the Banjarmasin Post, decide to write a glowing article about this inspiring politician, this champion of progressive values and social justice. So what do the people they talk to say? They remember Barry Soetoro as a good guy. Since Indonesians have generally become converts to Islam, their way to interpret this progressive good-guyness was to offhandedly say that, yes, geez, Barry was a sincerly believing Muslim. What's the harm in that? After all, I'm sure young Barry had never said anything disrespectful of their cultural---their religious beliefs when he'd been around 'em. So, just as Lincoln was surely a saved Christian leader of America, so also, surely Barry could easily be thought of as a young, good, upstanding former quasi-Indonesian. Right? (Read: "Muslim.")

Sociology!

Of course, problem is: both the adult Lincoln and the youthful Obama-(as-raised-by-Ann-Dunham) were pretty much skeptics. (As an aside: this would have obviously been before Barry's conversion to Christianity in Chicago.) But...........

"Barry was a Muslim?!," the American nativists cried. "Nooooooo!"

Sociology.

So Barry's campaign must honestly and truthfully (also politically.....) answer that, no, he had in fact never really practiced Islam (you know, other than studying it essentially as literature in school for a piece and the like). No, Senator Obama is sincerely now a practicing Christian.

Fine.

But here we are editing this article. And suddenly protective editors can't respect theseIndonesian Journalists as able to read a piece of bureaucratic paper work, even to the extent of believing that Barry Soetoro's step-father had an Ma. at the end of his name? "Nooooo! Then people might Google over to the rantings of nativists. We can't accept that as a source!"

(Whispers): ..."Sociology!" — Justmeherenow (   ) 04:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

That's awfully convoluted. A mainstream newspaper with fact checking and editorial checks would be a reliable source, whatever the language or country. Opinion pieces, government propaganda, obviously shoddy works, self-published sources, etc., are not reliable. So what's the problem now? Wikidemo (talk) 05:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

But we need it in English, so that readers and editors of en.wikipedia can verify that it says what it's purported to say, by whom it is claimed is the author, where it is said it comes from. I don't think AGF goes as far as to trust that sources posted are valid if they can't be independently verified or at least comprehended.Tvoz/talk 05:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No, not really. Any language is fine. There's a translation question though. See WP:V#Non-English sources. Wikidemo (talk) 05:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

But I'll put this to rest for the moment

Till some future New Yorker piece gets the spelling right, anyway. — Justmeherenow (   ) 05:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What's up with The New Yorker reference? Just curious. Is it meant to be a blast at alleged ethnocentrism? I don't see any New Yorker references added in to this article (yet). Please elaborate.--Utahredrock (talk) 06:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The New Yorker is cool----eg at eleven pages ya can afford the few extra tree-twigs worth of paper stock to be able to explain some details, is all. — Justmeherenow (   ) 14:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The New Yorker did indeed strike. Good prediction.--Utahredrock (talk) 01:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating

I have to say I've never had so much fun on a Wiki discussion before. I find this whole thread fascinating. I congratulate Justmeherenow for their spirit and persistence. Even so, it seems highly inappropriate for us as Wiki-editors to add to the name of Lolo Soetoro based on what may or may not have been part of his name in his native country. If other mainstream English publications decide to do that, then at that point (and only then), does it make sense for us to add to his name here.

Nevertheless, what a fascinating discussion. Hopefully someone in the mainstream media will see this extraordinary exchange of ideas and opininons and do a piece on it. It seems more than worthy of that to me. Cheers all.--Utahredrock (talk) 06:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if stuff like the following is fluff, give me more of it, 'cause I love it!

Narrator (Ian Williams): Indonesian television has given massive coverage to the U.S. election. Obama is being treated almost as a native son.
Wimar Wiroeler (Indonesian media commentator): Obama's candidacy confirms the romantic ideals people like me have held since childhood that America's the land of opportunity.
Williams: And it seems there are few who haven't been watching. From the market-
Man: I like Obama.
Williams: -to the university.
Woman: It's really exciting for me. ----NBC NEWS (broadcast March 14) — Justmeherenow (   ) 19:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't find it fascinating. Just another person in the street interview. It does seem nearly notable an anecdote enough to belong on anyone's BLP: Lolo or Obama. Just my .02. Bellagio99 (talk) 19:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Bellagio99, it almost doesn't even rate as news coverage (well, unbiased, anyway); however, I was just chiming in with Redrock about some of the great fascination B seems to endgender among his fans, including me, which is due in part, of course, to his disparate cultural backgrounds! — Justmeherenow (   ) 19:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I've had a request in to re-evaluate on the bio-eval. page, but nobody has done so yet. What needs to happen here? I don't know what class we're up to, but it's above stub! Cheers,--Utahredrock (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Who in the Wiki-world has the power to reassess articles?--Utahredrock (talk) 05:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Relax- they'll get to it. It still needs work anyway. For example - no information on where he was born, anything about his childhood other than the episode described? Did he have any other family? Where did he go to school, how did he get to go to Hawaii for college education? Do we really need to know that Obama said he was good looking, etc? Can we flesh out the struggles that Obama says he faced when he returned to Indonesia? What happened to him after Dunham left him? See if Maya has written about her father - maybe that is a source of information. Other than what happened to his father and brother (which doesn't add to his notability) I still do not see anything that isn't or couldn't be handled in Ann Dunham with a redirect to that section. Tvoz/talk 02:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Me relax? What are you kidding! (very big grin). Don't forget I am the one that "rushed" this thing to print with such speed it had your head spinning. It's good advice though, I am working on it (relaxing). Cheers,--Utahredrock (talk) 03:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

We have conflicting sources on Soetoro's age. Two are from a Chicago paper. One of these says he died at 51. The other says he was born in 1930 and died in 1987--making him 57.

In the book, Dreams from My Father, Obama says Lolo died at 51.

That's two votes for 51, one for 57. I say we go back to 51, and change the date of his birth back to unknown or 1936?--Utahredrock (talk) 08:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the edit.--Utahredrock (talk) 10:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Based on the three sources we have, two from the Chicago Sun Times and Obama's Dreams book, the best we can say is that he was born circa 1936. The Sun Times Family tree says he was born in 1930, which contradicts the other two sources. Until we find an additiona source we can not edit this. Thanks.--Utahredrock (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're citing Obama's book, you need page references in the places you are using it as a source - not an overall citation for the page. See Paul McCartney's use of books by Spitz and Miles, for example, for how to do it. Tvoz/talk 15:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep, knew this needed to be done, but wasn't sure how. Won't have time today to work on it, but will work on it. Thanks for pointing me to the "how to" resources.--Utahredrock (talk) 17:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Done.--Utahredrock (talk) 04:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Tvoz asked this question.

According to the available sources (thus far), we don't know.

In his book Dreams from my Father Obama expounds at great length about the lessons he learned from observing Lolo's life. The loss of Lolo's father, brother, and home were life altering events for Lolo. Beyond the struggle to survive after the loss of the home all we know is Lolo showed up in Hawaii some 10+ years later as a student. How he got there is a great question. Somebody knows and it would be a great topic for an enterprising journalist.

This is off topic for Lolo, but I am surprised how there seems to be so little evidence on Obama's half-siblings from Kenya. I don't believe any of them have Wiki-articles (which Tvoz would likely oppose). His half sister from his mother and Lolo has a Wiki article, but the rest seem absent in all wiki coverage.

Obama's family is absolutely fascinating and an integral part to who he is as a man. If you doubt this then read Obama's book, something I am just finally getting around to now.--Utahredrock (talk) 02:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

You'd have to show some notability for them, I think. I found the Soetoro case clear, since Obama lived with him for a number of years, which prompts media interest (notability). The half-siblings on his Obama's father's side only met Obama as adults. Of course, if they become featured in media accounts (for whatever reason, including the familial connection), then we might get some material for article content along with notability. LotLE×talk 04:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I never said we shouldn't have an entry for Lolo, by the way, for any readers who might search on the name - I just think it should be a redirect to a slightly enlarged section in Ann Dunham, like we handle many peripheral people. In my opinion, independent notability has not been demonstrated - and so far not much in the way of additional material either. I also think the Maya Soetoro-Ng article is unnecessary, by the way, and certainly would oppose articles about other unnotable half-siblings (unless more develops about them). That Obama's family is "absolutely fascinating" to some doesn't make them notable. About lessons Obama learned from Lolo's life, perhaps some of them could be worth including - just saying that there were lessons without expanding on it doesn't really tell us much. And my point about the missing information about the first half and much of the last half of Lolo's life is that so far just about the only facts we have are about Lolo in terms of Ann - so can be covered in her article. Tvoz/talk 05:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Tvoz added this wording to the article. From reading Dreams from my Father it sounds like (it's not clearly stated) that Obama and his mother followed Lolo over as much as a year, possibly even more, after Lolo himself returned to Indonesia. Since that's the case, "a short time later" based on the only available source I've found (Dreams), is not accurate. "Some time later" is more accurate.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why you're personalizing this, Utahredrock - yes, I changed that. The Ripley article says they spent months getting ready and followed Lolo - Barack is said to have been there for 4 years and back in Hawaii in 71 to go to Punahou for fifth grade, so that would have them in Indonesia in 1967, which is the year Lolo and Ann apparently got married. That sounds to me like a short time. It's not a big deal either way.Tvoz/talk 05:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Tvoz, I am not personalizing it, I am just trying to make the most accurate article possible. I do recommend you read Obama's books as they will give you a deeper understanding of him, his family, etc. Correct me if I am wrong, but such books are valid and important sources. With warmest regards,--Utahredrock (talk) 07:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest: "about a year later":

Mendell (2007). Obama: From Promise to Power, ISBN 0060858206, p. 32:

Ann Dunham remarried after divorcing Obama's father. True to her nature, she did not take the conforming path. This time, she wed an Indonesian native named Lolo Soetoro, another foreign student at the University of Hawaii. After spending two years in Hawaii, he was forced by political upheaval in his native Indonesia to suddenly return to Jakarta. About a year later, Ann and Barry moved to be with him.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 31:

Lolo left Hawaii quite suddenly after that, and my mother and I spent months in preparation—passports, visas, plane tickets, hotel reservations, an endless series of shots.

Finally, we boarded a Pan Am jet for our flight around the globe.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 32:

Walking off the plane in Djakarta, the tarmac rippling with heat, the sun bright as a furnace, I clutched her hand, determined to protect her from whatever might come.

Lolo was there to greet us, a few pounds heavier, a bushy mustache now hovering over his smile.

The car was borrowed, he told us, but he had bought a brand new motorcycle—a Japanese make, but good enough for now. The new house was finished; just a few touch-ups remained to be done. I was already enrolled in a nearby school, and the relatives were anxious to meet me.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 33:

The house was in a still-developing area on the outskirts of town. The road ran over a narrow bridge that spanned a wide brown river; as we passed, I could see villagers bathing and washing clothes along the steep banks below. The road then turned from tarmac to gravel to dirt as it wound past small stores and whitewashed bungalows until it finally petered out into the narrow footpaths of the kampong. The house itself was modest stucco and red tile, but it was open and airy, with a big mango tree in the small courtyard in front.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 40:

"What are those?"

"Leech marks," he said. "From when I was in New Guinea. They crawl inside your army boots when you're hiking through the swamps."

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 42:

Still something had happened between her and Lolo in the year that they had been apart.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 43:

He was working for the army as a geologist, surveying roads and tunnels, when she arrived. It was mind-numbing work that didn't pay very much; the refrigerator alone cost two months' salary. And now with a wife and child to provide for ... no wonder he was depressed. She hadn't traveled all this way to be a burden she decided. She would carry her own weight.

She found herself a job right away teaching English to Indonesian businessmen at the American embassy, part of the U.S. foreign aid package to developing countries. The money helped but didn't relieve her loneliness.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 44:

The death toll was anyone's guess: a few hundred thousand, maybe; half a million.

Innuendo, half-whispered asides; that's how she found out that we had arrived in Djakarta less than a year after one of the more brutal and swift campaigns of suppression in modern times.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 44–45:

She had finally complained to one of Lolo's cousins, a pediatrician who had helped look after Lolo during the war.

"You don't understand," the cousin had told her gently.

"Understand what?"

"The circumstances of Lolo's return. He hadn't planned on coming back from Hawaii so early, you know. During the purge, all students studying abroad had been summoned without explanation, their passports revoked. When Lolo stepped off the plane, he had no idea of what might happen next. We couldn't see him; the army officials took him away and questioned him. They told him he had just been conscripted and would be going to the jungles of New Guinea for a year. And he was one of the lucky ones. Students studying in Eastern Bloc countries did much worse. Many of them are still in jail. Or vanished."

You shouldn't be too hard on Lolo," the cousin repeated. "Such times are best forgotten."

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 46:

Instead, he maintained his concentration, and over the period that we lived in Indonesia, he proceeded to climb. With the help of his brother-in-law, he landed a new job in the government relations office of an American oil company. We moved to a house in a better neighborhood; a car replaced the motorcycle; a television and hi-fi replaced the crocodiles and Tata, the ape; Lolo could sign for our dinners at the company club.

Obama (1995, 2004). Dreams from My Father, ISBN 1400082773, p. 47:

Without the money to send me to the International School, where most of Djakarta's foreign schoolchildren went, she had arranged from the moment of our arrival to supplement my Indonesian schooling with lessons drawn from a U.S. correspondence course.

Her efforts now redoubled. Five days a week, she came into my room at four in the morning, force-fed me breakfast, and proceeded to teach me my English lessons for three hours before I left for school and she went to work.

See also: The Year of Living Dangerously.

Newross (talk) 17:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Newross! I knew I read that but hadn't had time to hunt it down. You did far more. Much appreciated. I went ahead and made the edit. I also changed his marriage date to Anne from c. 1967 to c. 1966. We know Obama and Anne traveled to Indonesia in 1967.--Utahredrock (talk) 01:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice to have one. This would be good to use:

http://www.kansasprairie.net/kansasprairieblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/copy-of-28585926.jpg

Same image here:

http://www.examiner.com/images/ap/small/small_d5526604-ff45-415d-9509-dfcd611145fe.jpg

Caption: (AP Photo/Obama Presidential Campaign)This 1970's photo provided by the presidential campaign of Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., shows the presidential hopeful, Obama, 9, right, with his mother Ann Dunham, center, his Indonesian step-father Lolo Soetoro, and his less than one-year-old sister Maya Soetoro in Jakarta, Indonesia.

But I think it wouldn't make it by copyright policy. I don't know the status of the image, nor really how to figure that out... half the images I've uploaded have been deleted, many of those on the flimsiest of grounds... I think one I created myself!. LotLE×talk 06:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there any way to include this link to an external photo? I added it once, but it was summarily removed. Not sure if that is Wikipolicy or just the opinion of the one who removed it?--Utahredrock (talk) 20:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe in the references or something; but the tone of your mention of it was far too informal, so the removal seems like the right thing. I'm not sure who did it, but it's not encyclopedic to write so directly in 2nd person, giving readers advice on how to go find something. LotLE×talk 21:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Please comment. It's proposed to MERGE this bio into "Ann Dunham#Second marriage" since each less-notable Dunham-Soetoro-Obama family member should be treated similarly. — Justmeherenow (   ) 17:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC) AMENDED  ${\displaystyle \sim }$  Justmeherenow 22:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. Too much material here for WP:UNDUE in Dunham article. Much of material is not directly related to Dunham. LotLE×talk 18:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: If we are going to debate this merger (which by definition makes it controversial), it should be listed at Wikipedia:Proposed_mergers so that uninvolved editors and experienced administrators can weigh in and help decide. --Loonymonkey (talk) 23:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose--Utahredrock We hear you Tvoz. In case anyone doesn't have time read our small book here (above), I strongly disagree with the merger idea. It seems illogical to me to merge the bios of two distinctly different people. If Lolo had never married Ann we wouldn't be interested in him, but he did, and many of us are very interested in him. At least I am. I am looking forward to other enterprising Wikipedians to write more about the Obama family, including other members. His immediate family has become notable because of who he is. Sure they may not all deserve Wiki bios, but some sure do, esp. some of the half-siblings. As I've said elsewhere, Obama has written extensively on his family. Auma and Roy seem especially notable. Perhaps we'll have to wait for the notoriety to rise in the eyes of others, but it will.--Utahredrock (talk) 01:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I added this to the merger page. --Utahredrock (talk) 01:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me - I have not proposed this merge - who did, and why are you making it look as if I did? I've made my opinion about this article clear, but I will choose the time when I want to propose whatever I want to propose - I don't think it is appropriate for an editor who opposes a move to make the proposal. I believe this is disruptive. If and when I want to propose a merge or a delete, you'll hear from me. In other words - someone who supports a merge should be the one to propose it, at the time that he or she thinks is appropriate, not someone who is against it. Tvoz/talk 03:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I've decided to stay officially neutral. — Justmeherenow (   ) 04:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no such rule about only someone sincerely favoring a certain actions (merge, delete) etc. being allowed to propose it. It can be perfectly good faith (as in this case) for an editor who is neutral, or even opposed to, a certain administrative change, to propose it to get the sense of the WP community. Ideally, some editors not previously involved with this page will chime in, and having the fresh pair of eyes will help all existing editors evaluate our intuitions. Can't think of it on a merge proposal, but certainly on AfD's I've seen nominating editors change their mind based on the discussion. LotLE×talk 04:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

[ec] Changing one's mind, sure. But a proposal to merge or delete made by someone who clearly opposes it is out of process - it stacks the deck against the proposal because it is not being argued for by someone who has chosen to propose it and willing or able at that time to defend it and respond to comments etc. What was the reason for this nomination now? I'm sorry, but my AGF'ing only goes so far. Tvoz/talk 04:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted my position on the merge and will remain neutral. — Justmeherenow (   ) 04:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

That's nice, but your position is already known, - you aren't neutral on it, which is your right, but let's be truthful. And you haven't explained why you made this proposal now. Tvoz/talk 04:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Please Tvoz, WP:AGF. Justmeherenow acted in a very measured and reasonable fashion, in a good-faith effort to solicit opinions on the merge that you have at least repeatedly suggested, even if you have not formally proposed it. Raising unfounded accusations of something else is just bad form. LotLE×talk —Preceding comment was added at 04:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't raise bad faith, I said this is out of process and disruptive, and I asked why the previous comment said "We hear you Tvoz" as if I had proposed this or commented on it. Yes, I've said I am against this separate article, but I have also said I would wait and see before doing anything formal, and I have - in good faith - edited the piece. So please don't lecture me about good faith. Tvoz/talk 05:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Tvoz it's always best to assume good faith. If you want to remove the proposal, please feel free.--Utahredrock (talk) 04:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

[ec]I didn't make the proposal, so it is no more appropriate for me to remove it than for someone who doesn't support it to make it. I didn't bring this to AfD or propose a merge in an effort to give you a chance to develop it into an article that demonstrates independent notability for the guy. This proposal now, in this fashion, is at best odd, and not something I can recall ever seeing in these kinds of actions. Tvoz/talk 05:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, Justmeherenow not only acted in good faith, but took exactly the correct action. Since Tvoz suggests in most of his comments that merge (or delete) is the appropriate course of action, soliciting addition opinions goes beyond merely "acceptable" to, in fact, being commendable. LotLE×talk 04:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Be careful when assuming the sex of a Wikipedian. You can sometimes be wrong.--Utahredrock (talk) 04:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Tvoz/talk 05:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I usually manage circumlocutions around the gendered pronouns. Sorry I didn't in that case. FWIW, I am generally referred to on WP by gender pronouns that don't really match me; it has always seemed indifferent to whatever discussion was actually at issue though (I confess that I find it a bit amusing when different editors call me, in turn, by different pronouns, in the same discussion). LotLE×talk 06:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't offended, don't worry. Some of my best friends are male. Tvoz/talk 03:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge canceledSince Tvoz doesn't support a merger at this time, I agree with her assertion that this is now a moot point.--Utahredrock (talk) 05:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction: I did not propose it at this time. Tvoz/talk 05:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

You're confusing me. If you want to propose it, please do so when you're ready. Anybody else can do the same.--Utahredrock (talk) 05:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Tvoz, I nominate you as the most entertaining editor in all of Wikipedium.--Utahredrock (talk) 05:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Not sure how to take that. Tvoz/talk 05:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome.--Utahredrock (talk) 05:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Note. I've posted on the Admin noticeboard, "Can a proposal be made by an opponent to gauge the sense of the community?" — Justmeherenow (   ) 17:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. This person gets referenced too often to be relegated to a footnote in another article. (regarding the reposted merge request) --StuffOfInterest (talk) 23:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Lulu - I saw an assessment by Tpbradbury on the bio assessment page as "start" class here but I did not see anyone re-evaluate it to "B" class, so unless I missed it, I was saying that we don't just change the rating ourselves. Good to know you're in that group - now I know who to ask for an evaluation when you're not one of the article's editors. Tvoz/talk 07:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)