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Latest comment: 2 months ago9 comments5 people in discussion
Should there be a section about controversies Madonna has been involved in? Like accusations of child trafficking and stuff. NintendoTTTEfan2005 (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
@NintendoTTTEfan2005: the information is actually present in one of her articles, philantrophy and activism. Seems it was a claim made by the EWF and later by Candace Owens and met a bit of popularity in Twitter or some platforms. A demand for a "controversy" section seems have been requested here since mid '00s by some IPs and active users of their time. The lack of the section might be comparable to the absence of other sections like "public image", a bit common section in some pop stars and other public figures articles. But her public image/controversies are fragmented by areas (like Donald Trump), because she has "many" public image(s)/reception(s), evidenced by areas such as her gay icon status, fashion and more plus denoted by a response from multiple ideologies/interests and decades/clichés from popular press and other sectors. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 14:38, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Lets not use drivel by a despicable piece of shit like Candace Owens to try to engage an accusation piece on Madonna, when everything has proven to be the opposite of.
Well, how about you look up "Madonna sex trafficking" on Google and see what you can find. Analyze the information available and then we go from there to determine whether this is notable to be included in this article. NintendoTTTEfan2005 (talk) 14:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
@NintendoTTTEfan2005: Regardless if the info is later deleted or synthetized (now or posthumously), what you request is found under the circunstances of the above article. About Google searches, seems those are circular reports with roots from the mentioned organization. Maybe we can compare it to request conservative reactions regarding Nintendo in their main's article, though Madonna generates a more "obvious" reaction due to her known polarized figure xD. Although are not untypical reactions from sectors like religious/conservatives/sociological reviews towards even superstars of "friendly"/"nice" image within popular press/public collective. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Agree. There has undoubtedly been criticism throughout her career (similarly with many public figures) and I was very much expecting to find one in Wiki. Its absence seems to suggest an effort to keep the entry clean fbow. 2600:1700:22F0:59EF:8980:6397:490C:72B0 (talk) 22:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't know enough about trafficking accusations to comment on those, but lumping controversies into separate sections/subsections within bio pages is frowned upon as that would create undue negative weight. We're better off interspersing such details throughout the article instead. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I know this is not a reliable source, I heard about this from watching this YouTube video titled "Madonna Investigated for Human Trafficking Her Own Children" by SLOAN NintendoTTTEfan2005 (talk) 13:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Need to talk about Back That Up To The Beat and Frozen Remix trending on tiktok, Popular making her first top 10 single in 15 years in her collab with the weeknd, and the celebration tour being more sucsessfull then the previous madame x and rebel heart tours XMadame (talk) 23:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion
It’s still listed as over 300M when it has been certified for over 400M sales. Please correct. 24.228.89.34 (talk) 17:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Madonna is currently eligible 135.85 million sales in the United States [1], if she were certified up to date her global units would go up to 237 million. Putting her above Elvis Presley who is claimed to have sold 500 million and only behind Michael Jackson and the Beatles.
I think it's more than reasonable to either move Madonna to 400 million now, or wait until she's certified again to do so. Never17 (talk) 06:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Music On Charts" seems like a fan account, and either way we'd need something better than a tweet merely talking about "Eligible Career Units" when that's not the same thing as being certified. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 25 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Now that the Celebration Tour is over, I think some changes should be made to the table of contents for her article. As 2017 was around the time the Rebel Heart era ended and she moved to Portugal, I think that should be the beginning of the Madame X section.
Furthermore, the Celebration Tour should have its own section, seperated from the Madame X Tour.
In summary:
2012-2016: Superbowl, MDNA and Rebel Heart
2017-2021: Move to Portugal, further adoption, Madame X
2021-present: Finally Enough Love and The Celebration Tour
A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
Weak oppose The proposer's claim that pageviews and reader expectations are not considered strong arguments is belied by the guideline WP:PT1, which says to look at just those things. The singer gets a strong 87.6% of the views among the main uses of madonna (per academic sources that I mention just below; and still 70%, more ... than all the other topics combined, when including Mary, though I think most English language use of that kind falls under Madonna (art)). Only 0.39–0.42% of readers go to Madonna (disambiguation) from Madonna, which is on par with the disambiguation drain from Bono.
Usage is more mixed when looking at academic search results for madonna: The first few pages of Google Scholar are pretty evenly split between the singer and all other uses (namely the religious figure, stereotype, and name), while Jstor is only about one third for the singer and Project Muse just a little more, though Google Books is basically entirely for the singer. This test does suggest no primary, though I tend to weigh reader benefit more so wouldn't support moving the article. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 03:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Most readers find pages through third party search engines. The average reader is unlikely to put 'Madonna' into Wikipedia, although I did do just that and was surprised.
>Usage is more mixed when looking at academic search results for madonna:
That is my point, usage is mixed in academia and when considering the historical significance of the term Madonna in art and culture you cannot say the entertainer is the primary topic. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also I am not sure how you can manage to analyse the tens of thousands of academic papers on the subject to be able to confirm that the singer has more academic articles.
Simply typing in 'Madonna' generates 721,000 results on Google Scholar, if you omit 'Christian' from the results it drops to 448,000, which is already 37% of the results simply mentioning 'Christian'. Searching 'Madonna' on Project Muse generates 12151 results, omitting all results with 'christian' in them drops it to just 2851 results, which is 76% of results omitted. Jstor goes from 102,514 to 67,521, with many of the results still being about Mary and not the entertainer. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Leaning oppose I think so because there's indication that the article is still primary topic, but i want to further research about that details. 103.111.100.82 (talk) 03:30, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose: Sorry for the long sentence. Partly because of my skills with English and to avoid making assumptions about fan perspectives or biases. After the third request, I still stand by my choice. Based on the same Wikipedia guidelines.
Forget about Madonna Ciccone: "Madonna" might signify "everything" as well as "nothing" to others, both here and in real life. Despite these and other contradictions, Madonna Ciccone still outperforms Wiki's figures for the term. Considering the typical volatile state of a entertainer, and despite the occasional online mockery of her antics/appearance or established hatred/criticism/rejection/indifference to her figure by various, she has proved, at least with the name, that she is neither recentism or obscure. To my knowledge, at least there are sources in English that support her significance with the name.
Regarding the long-significance, or appreciation of a tenier, Mary was without objections the first, at least compared to Madonna Ciccone, because Mary was not the first subject nor was a term invented for Mary, neither Mary wasn't born as Madonna. Madonna Ciccone already implemented that "newer" significance attached with the name.
If people could criticize Wikipedia for favoring Madonna Ciccone, it could happen. Similarly, people (authors/academics/fandoms/by faiths) could criticize many things: content in Wikipedia or many things/institution/people in their lives (online or real life). This include Catholic Church as institution or faith internal/outside criticism, the same to Protestant churches or Islamic faith or Mary herself (at least the way she is "revered" in some faiths) or Madonna Ciccone to give examples. It could be bizarre, or sentient, but this happens. In fact, Wikipedia itself have all of these entries, including criticism of Wiki How. For ages, the term "Madonna" as a likeness to Mary has been scrutinized and even, criticized, and if you give me a permission to say it, these aren't commentaries exclusively from "haters" or "non-conformist", as they could be "labeled" from a specific faith for example, and appears legitime analyses or commentaries. We must avoid, push a POV, whether we like it or not, in the same that we do not serve as PR of the Catholic Church, for Madonna Ciccone, the richest people in the world or any other institution. Act like a tree, and ofc, as long as it comes from recognized publishers or credible sources if an inclusion doesn't affect WP:UNDUE.
I know about the challenges from varied of arenas against Christian faith or religious, including Madonna Ciccone, who already has a devoted article. At the very least, we can be certain that "Madonna" is not a homogenized term of devotion to all Christians, or even homogenized for Mary. Like it or not, blasphemous or not, many will preferably overthink about God/Jesus rather than a figurine of Mary, respecting her but overlooking how she raised Jesus or seeing a baby Jesus with a gargantuan Mary, and prefer to overthink about his adulthood, ministry, and redemption. That's could be a mainstream view, even for non-religious people. -Apoxyomenus (talk) 04:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
My argument isn't even that Madonna is only used by Christians - my argument is that it's usage is varied and the primary topic cannot be claimed by the entertainer. The disambiguation page should occupy this title. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
The term Madonna for Mary is well-placed, with the title Madonna (art). Because it belongs to the origins of the term for Mary: art depictions of Mary. This article, also has a disamb link, where indicates readers to what Madonna could also means. Throughout ages, Madonna was a thing outside Mary’s likeness but overtaken by certain people. This could explain the discrepancy with art works like Madonna of Munch. Or even Madonna-whore complex, as Feud coined it with a very different term. Note also that as could happen in real life, Madonna Ciccone outpaces general websites like YouTube or Google contrary to Mary. So isn’t only Wikipedia --Apoxyomenus (talk) 04:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
While it's hard to measure how fast the term will outpace other things, let's not reinforce the problematic notion that Wikipedia is somehow mutually exclusive from "real life", and same goes for YouTube and Google. Your phrasing wrongfully implies that everything on the sites is fake. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 05:17, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose when over 87% of the page views for "Madonna" and 70% of academic sources pertain to the singer, it frankly is absurd to say she isn't the primary topic. There is no good reason to ignore such statistics. WP:PT1 very much applies here, and nothing presented here changes my stances from the previous two RMs. Trying to change the page's title again is just beating a dead horse. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:17, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Page views are a poor metric of primacy, see above.
Where is your evidence that 70% of academic sources pertain to the singer? Simply typing in 'Madonna' generates 721,000 results on Google Scholar, if you omit 'Christian' from the results it drops to 448,000, which is already 37% of the results simply mentioning 'Christian'. And was it 'beating a dead horse' to propose moving the entertainer here after 6 failed moves? Traumnovelle (talk) 04:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
I thought it was obvious that I meant the percentage that Hameltion gave above, also your "poor metric of primacy" comment regarding viewership of pages is completely false. While it admittedly baffles me how this wasn't just named "Madonna" before the 2020 RM, that discussion had been quite thorough, and until 2022 I was sure it had already resolved the matter definitively. For what it's worth, I do think having 6 prior discussions was excessive and that the page should've gotten its current title much sooner. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:42, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
It could continued until the end of times, tbh. We might have a more shifting culture: this or others future genetations could witness the entirely dead collective memory of Ciccone and/or have a worldwide's spiritual aweking, but yet Mary could be still a debated figure, therefore, the term Madonna too. Because we dont have a crystal ball but yet, we could still see the current denominations and prpbably they will still practicing the faith. This has happened since centuries, including views on Mary, maybe since the reform of 5th century, although the monoculture of that time favored it. Also, because the term is really popular by art critics. But yet we arent an encyclopedia oriented solely to art. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 08:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose per all the extensive explanation in the previous RMs, which is just way too exhausting to quote. Besides, "(entertainer)" is such a bad disambiguator invented by Wikipedia for Madonna Ciccone. She is rarely referred to as that in media and reliable sources. Bluesatellite (talk) 04:54, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
The new title isn't my primary concern with this move request. Feel free to suggest a better alternative. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
No, we should move on. Statistics shows Miss Ciccone as the primary topic of Madonna by a huge margin. Even, the United Nations legally approved the trademark of "Madonna" for her. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
You are really going to use a cybersquatting case as an argument for primacy? Views are not a determiner of primacy as evidenced by the guideline which gives multiple examples of a topic with less views being a primary topic. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's not only views. Madonna Ciccone is also a widely documented figure in academics and has long-term significance too (42 years and counting). Bluesatellite (talk) 05:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
There appears to be more academic documentation of Madonna in art there is also the concept in psychoanalysis. Both of which have a far longer term. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Did you have a cristal ball to say Madonna Ciccone will no have a continued documentation? Certainly, they are first to Madonna Ciccone, but Mary isn’t even the first subject ever named Madonna and the original origins have more tenier than Mary. And returning to our times, Madonna Ciccone still out spacing the ‘Wikipedia’s stats’. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 05:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
You also do not have one to suggest she will continue to maintain her relevance. I cannot understand what else you are trying to say with the rest of your comment. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
We still living in 2024 and you still don’t have a crystal ball. We can also assume people in 100 years or more could continue to ignore Mary as Madonna (no the standard Mary in the Bible) in their faith or knowledge or simply respectfully overlook it, as it have happened the tendency over centuries. And I meant that you can’t overlook the fact the tenier of the term is fact earlier that Mary, because wasn’t invented for her. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 06:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC considers the 'long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term', and in that regard we have centuries of notability and educational value before the entertainer was even born. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:36, 2 June 2024 (U
The policy also talks about the views alongside stats. Madonna Ciccone still have a new long significance starting when she debuted in the 1980s. Appears that she isnt obscure example nor she has desmonstrated to either be recenticsm. Like I said before, educational curriculum could vary by regions, even in English countries and advanced classes of art could be minimal or non-existent. Perhaps some institutions could have their educational program oriented in their faith, including perhaps examples like evangelical or Islamic where Mary is usually not represented as Madonna. Therefore, culturally this also explains a bit of things. If you look at other big Wikipedias, like Portuguese, French or Spanish, historically this hasnt been a problem and yet, they have the most Catholic population and yet, population in English countries follows similar reception by sectors.--Apoxyomenus (talk) 06:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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